using a metronome on 2 and 4?

This topic contains 8 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by David 9 years, 5 months ago.

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October 30, 2015 at 5:09 pm #2680

David
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I have heard quite a few people (notable Emily Remler, Sheryl Bailey) say that it is a good idea to practice using the metronome with ‘clicks’ on 2 and 4 to get a swing feel. Have you used this technique? Do you think it helps with feeling the pulse of the music? If so, would you use it on just ‘bebop songs’ or on slow ballads as well? Thanks very much for your time, Im loving the site, thanks for the recent lessons update as well, and for your blog post on jazz guitarists, there were a lot of musicians Ive never heard of before which is fantastic
October 30, 2015 at 6:37 pm #2686
Rick Stone
Keymaster
David,

Emily Remler, Sheryl Bailey and a lot of the Berklee schooled players (and that included me) were into that 2 and 4 thing. It “kind of works” up to a point, but I learned later on that it was actually holding me back.

When I studied with Hal Galper about 25 years ago, he made this really clear. Now all this information is out there in the form of Youtube videos. Check this one out first (I think it will answer a lot of questions).

I’ve got to give a lesson right now, but if you’ve got further questions, I’ll be back on in a couple hours.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Rick Stone.
- This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Rick Stone.
October 30, 2015 at 10:18 pm #2690

David
Participant

Thanks very much Rick, I think Ill have to give the link above a few listens, Im not sure if it would help but if you feel inclined, it would be great if you could perhaps do a video on time, rhythm and syncopation (maybe with a couple examples for illustration..sometimes it helps me absorb the information if its explained in a few different ways I really appreciate your help, Im also going to check out Mike Longo’s stuff (since Hal Galper mentioned him an another video on youtube). Thanks again!
- November 1, 2015 at 7:39 am #2696
  
  Rick Stone
  Keymaster
  
  David,
  
  Thanks. Yes, a video on time and syncopation would probably be a good thing. I do discuss it a little in some of the technique lessons (creating syncopation using the 3 against 4 concepts and vice-versa) but I haven’t really done one that was just about time. That is a really important topic, and Hal is right, it’s largely overlooked in jazz education. So I guess that will go on the (very long and continuously growing) list of videos to record.
  
  I will say that in my own education, time was never much talked about, but I was always listening, playing along with recordings and playing with people. So time and syncopation was something that I learned in a less disciplined way, but more via osmosis. It wasn’t until I studied with Hal Galper that it was ever really discussed extensively. Just being around great players and copying the tradition is how many of us learned.
  
  But meanwhile, check out Hal’s stuff (there are a bunch of other videos on youtube) and get Mike Longo’s Book/DVD. I’ve seen it and it’s excellent.
  
  Musically Yours,
  Rick
November 1, 2015 at 5:46 pm #2703

David
Participant

Thanks for your reply, if I may ask, how was your playing before and after your studies with Hal? What are some concepts that changed the way you think about time etc. I noticed on the video that he had the piano player tap on 1 and 3 (and then later on not to tap much at all but to play with no emotion to smooth out his lines), are you able to clarify what he meant by playing everything in 2/4 time (or perhaps counting/feeling things in 2/4 time)? Maybe a video would be a better way of explaining it rather than typing in though some things are caught rather than taught (which you mentioned above), which may make dissecting these things harder though…
November 2, 2015 at 2:41 pm #2709

Rick Stone
Keymaster

David,

Yes, what Hal is talking about is playing in 2/2 time (not 2/4). He means feeling the measure in “two” where the main beats are ONE and THREE. It enables you to handle fast tempos much more easily, and all the great bop players I’ve been around (notably Barry Harris, Tommy Flanagan, etc.) feel the music this way (all you’ve got to do is watch how they pat their foot when they play and you’ll see it right away).

As far as my playing pre/post Hal, it’s all out there. The two albums I did before I studied with Hal were “Blues for Nobody” and “Far East.” Another “Steppin’ Back” was recorded right after the period with Hal but that session was rather rushed (the whole thing was recorded in 3 hours) and I don’t feel like the concepts were really absorbed at that time. Two that I recorded later (when the concepts were more fully formed) were “Samba de Novembro” and “Fractals.” Of course they were recorded over a fairly long period of time and there were lots of other influences as well, but I’d like to think that I play with a much deeper rhythmic maturity on the later stuff.

You can find them all on CD Baby https://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/RickStone

Musically Yours,
~ Rick
November 3, 2015 at 8:53 am #2717

David
Participant

Hi Rick, thanks very much for your clarification (perhaps a video would be great because Im still confused I thought if something was in 2/2 there are only two beats to the bar (and you would count the two beats), so how would you count the main beats as One and three? Im sure Im missing something Have you had a chance to check out Barry Harris on this youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnX_PkDwWs He talks both of tapping on one and three as well (not two and four) and he also talks of thinking in 6/8 (exactly like Mike Longo teaches, he even gives the same example). Anyway, the above link is an informal discussion and very interesting, lots of good concepts…I think when hes talking to the guitar student he talks of moving one note in a half diminished chord to make it a 7th chord (Barry said guitar players dont know this but Pat Martino has a dvd out where he talks about it at length, I would have been curious to ask Barry what the thought of Martino use of diminished chord/scale…or perhaps they are using it in different ways?) Ill defiantly check out your CDs as well, thanks for posting the link!
- November 3, 2015 at 11:50 am #2720
  Rick Stone
  Keymaster
  David,
  
  Yes, technically in 2/2 there are only two beats in the measure and I’ve even seen some books where they’ve said you should count your quarter notes as One And Two And. But I don’t think that most musicians do it that way. We’re way too programmed to count our eighth notes that way, so it’s easier to just read our eighth notes the way we’re used to, and simply tap the foot in “two” with the emphasis on beats One and Three.
  
  So that counting a regular measure of eighth notes in cut time can be counted like this:
  
  “ONE and two and THREE and four and”
  
  And if you’re feeling them in Forward Motion (as Hal Galper suggests) you actually count everything as if it was a “pickup” and read across the bar-lines so that it becomes:
  
  “and four and ONE and two and THREE”
  
  With regard to the Barry Harris video, yes I’ve seen it (and heard most of this stuff from Barry in person as I studied with him for about 5 years when I first moved here in the 80s and then for a couple more after I finished my Masters Degree in the early 90s). Barry is a true master of the music and there are now a lot of videos of his out there. I’d also highly recommend the two sets of books/DVDs of his put out by another former student Howard Rees http://jazzworkshops.com/the-barry-harris-workshop-video/ http://jazzworkshops.com/the-barry-harris-workshop-video-part-2/
  
  Yes, the 6/8 over 4/4 thing is very prevalent in jazz rhythm, so anybody who knows what they’re talking about is going to probably mention it when they talk about rhythm. And it does come from the New Orleans Second Line Rhythm as demonstrated in this video by Bernard Purdie https://youtu.be/Khsy0eECpRI
  
  I’m certainly been aware of the parallels in Barry’s and Pat Martino’s thinking on using the Diminished chord to create all the 7th chords (that, combined with the basic arranging rules I learned at Berklee in the 70s forms the whole basis for my “Chord Construction Workshop” series) https://www.jazzguitarlessons.com/chord-construction-workshop/ I don’t know how aware Barry is of Pat Martino as they’re of different generations. There are definitely some differences in the way they use the diminished chords though.
  
  Musically Yours,
  ~ Rick
  - This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Rick Stone.
November 4, 2015 at 12:29 pm #2724

David
Participant

Thanks very much Rick for your great explanation and for the links, yes I did noticed you were using the diminished to 7 model for your chords, I just forgot when I was typing out the previous reply, thanks for all your help, I emailed Mike Longo to ask a question and he said for me to pass his thanks on to you for recommending the drumming DVD/book. I’m working on learning the arpeggio’s as well as ATTYA tune, thanks for the lessons!
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